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Author: OrangePiLinux

This is How I see Orange Pi in Future. How You see it in Future?

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Post time 2015-3-27 20:38:09 | Show all posts
I would try to make a larger point of you, i hope you will forgive me
At the moment the major trouble we have with arm boards is the software, we don't have an os with the full support of this platform
If we need to give more power to these boards is only because the os doesn't use theme in the better way. Lot of x86 software don't run on arm machines yet, and it is not a resource problem.
Another consideration is the price: more power -> better components -> big price. But for less than 50 $/€ we can buy an atom board, which is x86 and has not problems with OSs, and has a lot of ports (usb, pcie, etc).
So, imho, the firse target should be the price: under 50. The second target should be the "durability": not a new board every 3 mounths, overall if price is high, and if the producer stop to support the old ones.

Coming back to components, i think the gpu is the real problem....for server use a simple A10 works well.
In a linux ambient, i think nvidia is the best choice, and looking at the site i found this: http://www.nvidia.it/download/driverResults.aspx/74912/it
I don't know if one of theme may be used on op, and how may be the price, but an op plus with nvidia gpu and 2gb of ram may be the a good point of start for futher boards (only need to change position at the mic and the ir receiver).
Hope to haven't bored you too much
Cheers
Tk
OrangePi A20, with Qbee-X_testing

Still waiting for refund/replacement of no working op+2e bought on 11/11 >_<...really serious company

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 Author| Post time 2015-3-27 21:05:43 | Show all posts

h

Edited by OrangePiLinux at 2015-3-27 23:48

Rockchip RK3368, AllWinner A64 --look very interesting for Orange PI 3.  They have 4-8 A53 64bit cores and plus some poweerfull GPU--at least I hope that it is powerfull. This would be the best solution for middle range customer.

If talk about Orange Pi Plus with RK3288 chip--I think is difficult to find any different but powerfull CPU for it. But we have to remember--it is Powerfull line of CPUs from ARM. So has to have for sure efficient Cooler on it.



There are two line fo products-- Performance efficient and Cost efficient. Good thing--it has Mali T760 GPU.

If to go Arm site--is possible to see such lines of GPUS:

Mali Cost Efficient GPUs--Mali 400MP, Mali-450MP, Mali T622, Mali T720, Mali T820, Mali T830;

Mali Performance Efficient GPUs--Mali T604, Mali T624, Mali T628, Mali T760, Mali T860, Mali T880.


So lets compare Mali 400MP4 and Mali 450MP8 in order to find out what it gives us if we move from outdated Mali 400 to something more new and better of course.

Mali 400MP1 in 28nm package clocked at 500Mhz can throughput 55 Mtri/s ( Millons of triangles) and 500 Mpix/s (Millons of pixels); in MP4 format it can do 55Mtri/s (Millions of trinangles) and 2.0 Gpix/s ( billions of pixels)

Mali 450MP4 in 28nm package clocked at 650Mhz can throughput 142 Mtri/s ( Millions of trinangles) and 2,6 Gpix/s (Billions of pixels); in MP8 format 142 Mtri/s (Millions of triangles) and 5,2 Gpix/s ( Billions of pixels)

So looks like at least huge boost in GPU performance if we migrate from Rockchip Rk3188 to Amlogic chips with MP8 GPU like Amlogic T866, Amlogic M801, Amlogic M802, Amlogic S802, Amlogic S812 . I talk if we would have to chose--Rockchip rk3188 or Amlogic solutions.

Now lets see which GPU used in Rk3288 in order to see its performance.

It says that Mali T760 MP16 in 28nm clocked at 650Mhz can throughput 1300Mtri/s (Millions of triangles) and 10,4 Gpix/s (Billions of pixels). I think we have only 4MP in GPU of Rk3288--so then results should be 4 times less:

Mali T760 MP4 in 28nm clocked at 650Mhz can throughput 1300 Mtri/s (Millions of triangles) and 2,6 Gpix/s (Billions of pixels).

So, if we will have CPU Rockchip RK3288 in ORange Pi 2 Plus----then we have to decide such issues:

1. The only expensive component on board should be only CPU?
2. Do we need 4 USB 2.0 or three USB 2.0 and one USB 3.0 ? ( If there is no Native USB 3.0 support--like it could only be organised through bridge--USB 2.0 to USB 3.0---then better to have 4 USB 2.0)
3. Do we need Gigabit Ethernet or 100Megabit ethernet? ( 100 Megabit is 8 Megabyte per second. Speed is 8 times quicker of the ammount of data we get.  Is it alot 8 Megabyte per second in Multimedia world? If to compare with 480 megabit of USB 2.0which should give in best scenario 60 MB but as usually does 20- to 30MB---I would not say so. I would not also say that Gigabit ethernet is something which is future proof. Future proof is 10 Gigabit--but is not yet available everywhere 10 Gigabit.)
4. We do not need HDMI 1.4 which gives 4k30, we want HDMI 2.0 which gives 4K60. ( And RK3288 has native support for HDMI 2.0 anyway--so why not use it? )
5. At whom is adrresed this board? At person who wants to pay for it 50$, 60$, 70$ ? Can you name the price?
6. How many you would pay for this board if you would buy it?
7. Should this board include only board--or also case, Cooler, PSU (US, EU, GB, AU), Manual in Kit?
8. Do we need eMMC-Chip on Board or you want only SD Card Reader? Which size of eMMC chip personnaly suits you? ( I think that to have board without eMMc is kind of like craziness. I can understand Rasberry Pi here--their main target is to make computer as cheap as possible for educational purposes. SD CArd is not so reliable once, Also I think there should be two versions--one--with Sd card reader only--for boards which cost only 35$ and another version--Sd card reader and eMMC 8GB or 16 GB. why we should have board which has less eMMC then in tablets or Android Boxes? How you will use it as Android Device if you will quickly run out of space on eMMC when installing game or something?)
9. Do you personnaly want to have possibility to buy ORange Pi on Ebay, pay with PayPal for it , have free shipping and wait for parcel one month until it arrives?
10. Do you use CAmera dn Touch lcd screen connectors on board? Do you think they are necessary to have on board? Are you planning in near future buy camera and Touch screen LCd or you plan to use board only through HDMI?
11. Do we need to have Analog VGA connector on board or you think that it occupies only spaaace on board, thus making it bigger and that is better to use HDMI which is Digital and thus future proof? ( I personnaly think that HDMI is better--because with it you can connect it to TV, Monitor, To DVI monitor. VGA only makes board bigger and adds additional chips. If there is such need for VGA--there are possible to buy adapters. Also VGA is analog which gives really bad quality. All latest Monitors are shippd with HDMI and DispalyPort.)
12. Do we need on board DisplayPort or Micro DisplayPort?
13. Do you like on board usual size HDMI or micro or mini HDMI?
14. Which size of SBC (Single Board Computer) you would like to have Orange Pi in--- Credit-Card-Size, Book-Size? Name your own size.
15. Which connectors on SBC look for you more reasonable? And what is more important for you--price or functionality, or reasonable balance between them?
16. Do you want to have 1 GB RAM or 2 GB RAM or 3 GB of RAM or 4 GB of RAM on board? ( I personnaly think 1GB is already outdated ammount... 2GB is normal ammount to my opinion).

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Post time 2015-3-27 22:18:32 | Show all posts
Edited by gaara at 2015-3-27 15:26

I don't think usb3 is a good solution, I prefer sata. For me, usb3 is just for marketing (lots of drivers, don't work properly ootb). However I could be wrong!
For the gpu and/or cpu, more it's powerfull, more it need a cooler. If a simple cooler is not enough, adding a fan in such systems could be very negative, because the first argument of theses boards is low consomption, and silence working. So, finding a intermediate solution between power/heat should be very interesting for most of users.
For the price, personnaly I can get it about 60$, not more. For me, (I'm not dev, not engenier or what, just enthusiast) there's always risks when we want to build something.
And I think the case is another product, some people plays to do it with lego
For cooler, if the card need it, why not. But no fan! :p

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 Author| Post time 2015-3-27 22:25:30 | Show all posts
Edited by OrangePiLinux at 2015-3-27 22:27

Agree--if USB 3.0 is not native--then we do not need it--just will add to board additional --Bridge-Chips and thus will make board more complex and thus more expensive.

But you should take also into account that SATA here also not native--it works through bridge from USB 2.0 to SATA. So thus you do not get real SATA speed with HDD you connect.

In other words--you could get Enclosure for HDD with built in SATA to USB and connect it to any USB on board. Thus board will have less bridges--and will be cheaper.

I would the most like to see RK3288 on it--like it really worth it--but all those bridges--I doubt we need them.

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 Author| Post time 2015-3-28 19:16:12 | Show all posts
Edited by OrangePiLinux at 2015-3-28 21:11

You know guys I was thinking about it all and I think we need to take another approach when designing "SBC for Everyone".

First of all--such board needs to be Affordable (Cheap), Powerfull(Productive) and Cool (Running at cool temperstures)

I think I found CPUs which are cheap, affordable and powerful.

So Our candidates are:
1. Amlogic M802; 2. Amlogic S802; 3. Amlogic S812; Amlogic T866.

You will chose and vote for CPU you like and configuration you prefer



So first chip is Amlogic M802.





Specifications:
CPU: Quad Core A9;
GPU: Octo Core Mali-450;
Memory: Up to 4GB, DDR3/3L, LPDDR2/3;
Display Capability: TTL, LVDS, MIPI-DSI, eDP and HDMI
Display Resolution: 4K2K
Camera: Up to 13MP with built -in ISP module;
Memory Card: Yes
USB: USB 2.0 host and OTG
Video: Multi-format 4K2K, H.264 encoder
Audio: MP3, AAC, WMA, RM, FLAC
Special AV Support: Dolby, DTS, SRS, DviX HD, AC-3
Graphics: OpenGL, ES1.1/2.0
Package: 19mm x 19mm, LFBGA

Second chip is Amlogic S802.





Specifications:
CPU: Quad Core A9;
GPU: Octo Core Mali-450;
Memory: Up to 4GB, DDR3/3L, LPDDR2/3;
Display Capability: HDMI 1.4b Tx and CVBS;
Display Resolution: 4K2K
Memory Card: Yes
USB: USB 2.0 host and OTG;
Video Decoder: Multi-format 4K2K and H.264 UHD hardware decoder;
Video Encoder: H.264, 1080p;
Audio: MP3, AAC, WMA, RM, FLAC;
Special A/V Support: Dolby, DTS, SRS, DviX HD, AC-3;
Graphics: OpenGL, ES1.1/2.0
Ethernet: 10/100M MAC
Other I/O: Remote and UART
Package: 19mm x 19mm, LFBGA

Third chip is Amlogic S812.



Specifications:
CPU: Quad Core A9;
GPU: Octo Core Mali-450;
Memory: Up to 4GB, DDR3/3L, LPDDR2/3;
Display Capability: HDMI 1.4b Tx and CVBS;
Display Resolution: 4K2K
Memory Card: Yes
USB: USB 2.0 host and OTG;
Video Decoder: Multi-format 4K2K, H.264 and H.265 UHD hardware decoder;
Video Encoder: H.264, 1080p;
Audio: MP3, AAC, WMA, RM, FLAC;
Special A/V Support: Dolby, DTS, SRS, DviX HD, AC-3;
Graphics: OpenGL, ES 1.1/2.0;
Ethernet: 10/100M/1000M MAC;
Other I/O: Remote and UART;
Package: 19mm x 19mm, LFBGA

Fourth chip is Amlogic T866.





Specifications:
CPU: Quad Core A9;
GPU: Octo Core Mali-450;
Memory: Dual 32-bit DDR3/3L, LPDDR2/3, up to 4GB;
Display Output: Dual Channel, LVDS, and V-by-One HS and HDMI 2.0
Display Resolution: 4K2K
HDMI RX: 4K2K HDMI 1.4b Rx x 3
A/V Input: CVBS
Memory Card: Yes
USB: 2 USB 2.0/ 1 USB 3.0
DTV Interface: DTMB, DVB-C, TS
Video Decoder: 4K2K H.264, H.265, VC-1, MPEG1/2/4
Video Encoder: H.264, 1080p
Audio: MP3, AAC, WMA, RM, FLAC
Special A/V Support: Dolby, DTS, SRS, DviX HD, AC-3
Graphics: OpenGL, ES 1.1/2.0
Ethernet: 10/100/1000M MAC
Package: 18mm x 18mm LFBGA

First of all--this board which we will create has to cost 35$--then it will be affordable and polpular--also it has to have SD Memory Card Slot--with higher specification--UHS1--like in Odroid C1(So it will allow quicker transfers and thus quicker work) and has to have port for eMMC on board(eMMC Module Socket). So like this board will sell without eMMC on board--thus will make it cheaper, but at same time this board wil have possibility to install eMMC chip for people who want it--like you will decide your own size you need 4GB-8Gb-16GB. So essentially we will solve the problem with eMMc once and for all---you want it--you have it--you can install chip--if you do not want it--do not install it. Because the problem of nowadys boards is that they either have chip or do not have. With eMMC Module Socket--problem solved once and for all.
Look yourself:


The difference between Amlogic M802, S802, S812 and T866 as far as I understand is minor. Like they all are the same by productivity, all can display 4K. THe only things which differ them are: 1 GBit Ethernet, HDMI 2.0 and USB 3.0 in T866.

So we need to decided if those features matter for us but as far as I understand-- Amlogic T866 supports natively USB 3.0 and HDMI 2.0--so there willl be no bridges and thus--board will cost the same.

So I will write specs and you will decide which one suits best for you:

HARDWARE SPECIFICATIONS Orange Pi mini 1

CPU                                        Amlogic M802  Quad-Core Cortex A9

GPU                                        Mali 450 MP8 GPU at 650Mhz Supports OpenGL ES 2.0

Memory SDRAM                    2GB DDR3 shared with GPU

Onboard Storage                 TF Card (Max 64Gb)/ MMC Card Slot (UHS-1 Spec) /  eMMC Module Socket (For installing your desired size eMMC)

Onboard Network               10/100M Ethernet RJ45/ Wi-Fi A/B/G/N/  Bluetooth 4.0 (in case chip is S812 or T866 -- 1 GBit LAN)

Video Input

Audio Input

Video Outputs                  HDMI 1.4b ( Up to 4K30) and Composite (CVBS) ( In case chip is T866--HDMI 2.0 up to 4K60)

Audio Outputs

Power Source

USB 2.0 ports                     4 USB 2.0, 1 micro USB OTG,  ( inCase chip is T866--1 USB 3.0)

Buttons

Low Level Peripheral

Connectors                      GPIO 40 Pin, I2C, SPI, UART, IDC

Supported OS                Android, Firefox, Ubuntu Core, Debian, OpenSuse, ArchLinux, RSpbian, Bananian...

Product Size                  93mm x 60mm

Weight                         45g


If chip will be Amlogic T866--then is possible organize on board bridge USB 3.0 to SATA and get real SATA Speed out of the box.   


Interesting is that on shop already appeared Cases for Orange Pis and Camera, also is possible to buy Board+CAse+ PSU together:  Link

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Post time 2015-3-28 23:17:01 | Show all posts
Interesting !
For me, all of these CPUs are good, but I'm not a hardware specialist ;)
All depends the price and the PDT, and mainly... the strategy of Orange Pi makers.
For the eMMC card, Samsung will give up for UFS flash memory soon. In theory, 1.45Go/s !! Possible to see this in a future board ?

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Post time 2015-3-29 00:03:06 | Show all posts
Edited by gaara at 2015-3-28 18:32

Interesting !
For me, all of these CPUs are good, but I'm not a hardware specialist ;)
All depends the price and the PDT, and mainly... the strategy of Orange Pi makers.
For the eMMC card, Samsung will give up for UFS flash memory soon. In theory, 1.45Go/s !! Possible to see this in a future board ?
Edit: sorry for the double

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Post time 2015-3-29 00:28:22 | Show all posts
Most of the Cpu's im seeing up here cost more then the boards themselves.

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Post time 2015-3-29 01:38:31 | Show all posts
@KingNyx:
Look a this, http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/10/24/80-cx-s806-android-mini-pc-powered-by-amlogic-s812-soc/
80$ for a mini pc based on S812 SoC.
Maybe without the box and the optical oupput, it can be possible to make a 65/70$ board ? Ok, it's the high-end, but 8 core MALI 750 !...

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Post time 2015-3-29 01:46:52 | Show all posts
my fifty cents King....

for the final price of ~ 50$ calculate not more as 15-20$ for all parts. add delevopment and production and a little bit for Steven (the good should not starve)
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